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	<title>Comments on: The BHS science flap &#8212; the ripples are spreading</title>
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	<link>http://www.berkeleyside.com/2009/12/30/the-bhs-science-flap-the-ripples-are-spreading/</link>
	<description>News and notes on our city</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 09 Feb 2012 10:05:00 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Next on the BHS agenda: meeting superintendent &#8211; Berkeleyside</title>
		<link>http://www.berkeleyside.com/2009/12/30/the-bhs-science-flap-the-ripples-are-spreading/comment-page-1/#comment-756</link>
		<dc:creator>Next on the BHS agenda: meeting superintendent &#8211; Berkeleyside</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jan 2010 00:05:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.berkeleyside.com/?p=1972#comment-756</guid>
		<description>[...] The BHS science flap — the ripples are spreading [12.30.09] [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The BHS science flap — the ripples are spreading [12.30.09] [...]</p>
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		<title>By: TL's new friend</title>
		<link>http://www.berkeleyside.com/2009/12/30/the-bhs-science-flap-the-ripples-are-spreading/comment-page-1/#comment-713</link>
		<dc:creator>TL's new friend</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jan 2010 20:40:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.berkeleyside.com/?p=1972#comment-713</guid>
		<description>Dear Thomas Lord,

I find myself wanting to say something to you that can all too easily be misconstrued in horrible ways. I hope you take this in the friendly and respectful way in which it is meant:

Your boiling down of redteapots posted comments leaves a residuum reeking of bias and ignorance... yours. 

You&#039;ve claimed her subtext is as follows -

a) &quot;changes at BHS are fine as long there is no reduction in service to anyone&quot;.
 
Eliminating 0 and 7 period science labs is a &quot;reduction in services&quot; in the same way amputating your leg would be a &quot;reduction in limbs&quot;. The current construct provides essential support for classes forced to excel under the &quot;reduced&quot; circumstances of obscenely large class sizes and finite lab space.

As far as not reducing services &quot;to anyone&quot;. Does that mean &quot;anyone who wants services&quot; or those whom the BUSD has a priority mandate to serve - legal residents of the city of Berkeley? Surely our burden would be eased if that was the case. After all &quot;BUSD receives $12,400 per student compared with the average California unified school district that receives $9,000 — almost 40% more!&quot;

Your translation of the second part of redteapots comments  is even more mystifying.  

&quot;...(b) &quot;science is good; (c) the “science is good” position has political power...&quot; 

Characterizing (as you do) those statements as hectoring (&quot;...to treat with insolence; to threaten; to bully; hence, to torment by words; to tease; to taunt; to worry or irritate by bullying.&quot;) requires that someone must be bullied, even tormented, by the facts that science is good and has political power. Who is the object of this bullying torment? For all the bullying torment I&#039;ve endured from those who perpetrate the &quot;classism and racism&quot; you accuse redteapot of endorsing: Not once has the racial epithet &quot;science is good&quot; gotten under my skin.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Thomas Lord,</p>
<p>I find myself wanting to say something to you that can all too easily be misconstrued in horrible ways. I hope you take this in the friendly and respectful way in which it is meant:</p>
<p>Your boiling down of redteapots posted comments leaves a residuum reeking of bias and ignorance&#8230; yours. </p>
<p>You&#8217;ve claimed her subtext is as follows -</p>
<p>a) &#8220;changes at BHS are fine as long there is no reduction in service to anyone&#8221;.</p>
<p>Eliminating 0 and 7 period science labs is a &#8220;reduction in services&#8221; in the same way amputating your leg would be a &#8220;reduction in limbs&#8221;. The current construct provides essential support for classes forced to excel under the &#8220;reduced&#8221; circumstances of obscenely large class sizes and finite lab space.</p>
<p>As far as not reducing services &#8220;to anyone&#8221;. Does that mean &#8220;anyone who wants services&#8221; or those whom the BUSD has a priority mandate to serve &#8211; legal residents of the city of Berkeley? Surely our burden would be eased if that was the case. After all &#8220;BUSD receives $12,400 per student compared with the average California unified school district that receives $9,000 — almost 40% more!&#8221;</p>
<p>Your translation of the second part of redteapots comments  is even more mystifying.  </p>
<p>&#8220;&#8230;(b) &#8220;science is good; (c) the “science is good” position has political power&#8230;&#8221; </p>
<p>Characterizing (as you do) those statements as hectoring (&#8220;&#8230;to treat with insolence; to threaten; to bully; hence, to torment by words; to tease; to taunt; to worry or irritate by bullying.&#8221;) requires that someone must be bullied, even tormented, by the facts that science is good and has political power. Who is the object of this bullying torment? For all the bullying torment I&#8217;ve endured from those who perpetrate the &#8220;classism and racism&#8221; you accuse redteapot of endorsing: Not once has the racial epithet &#8220;science is good&#8221; gotten under my skin.</p>
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		<title>By: BHS science/equity debate &#8212; the latest &#8211; Berkeleyside</title>
		<link>http://www.berkeleyside.com/2009/12/30/the-bhs-science-flap-the-ripples-are-spreading/comment-page-1/#comment-683</link>
		<dc:creator>BHS science/equity debate &#8212; the latest &#8211; Berkeleyside</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jan 2010 23:12:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.berkeleyside.com/?p=1972#comment-683</guid>
		<description>[...] The BHS science flap &#8212; the ripples are spreading [12.30.09] [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The BHS science flap &#8212; the ripples are spreading [12.30.09] [...]</p>
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		<title>By: John Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.berkeleyside.com/2009/12/30/the-bhs-science-flap-the-ripples-are-spreading/comment-page-1/#comment-638</link>
		<dc:creator>John Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Jan 2010 16:26:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.berkeleyside.com/?p=1972#comment-638</guid>
		<description>Shouldn&#039;t the sports programs be on  the chopping block before the science labs? Have the people advocating getting rid fo the AP science labs, first looked at the sports programs? Or do those programs benefit the right colored students?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shouldn&#8217;t the sports programs be on  the chopping block before the science labs? Have the people advocating getting rid fo the AP science labs, first looked at the sports programs? Or do those programs benefit the right colored students?</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas Lord</title>
		<link>http://www.berkeleyside.com/2009/12/30/the-bhs-science-flap-the-ripples-are-spreading/comment-page-1/#comment-623</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas Lord</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jan 2010 09:27:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.berkeleyside.com/?p=1972#comment-623</guid>
		<description>Redteapot, I find myself wanting to say something to you that can all too easily be misconstrued in horrible ways.  I hope you take this in the friendly and respectful way in which it is meant.

Your argument seems boil down to: (a) changes at BHS are fine as long there is no reduction in service to anyone;  (b) science is good;  (c) the &quot;science is good&quot; position has political power.

I think that with (a), in reality, you are endorsing classism and racism (since upper classes and certain raises are favored by the current allocation of services) and that (b) and (c) are hectoring, not rationale.

The principal&#039;s plan seems weak on his specifics and rationale for how to spend the reallocated funds but you and others are attacking it on some princple opposed to reallocation of funds at all... and I think in performing such opposition you are making a case study in institutionalized racism and classism.   I wish the principal had his &quot;ducks more in a row&quot;, so to speak.  Things are muddled because there are both good and bad reasons to oppose his plan.   It&#039;s the popularity of the bad reasons to oppose that really makes me uncomfortable with the opposition.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Redteapot, I find myself wanting to say something to you that can all too easily be misconstrued in horrible ways.  I hope you take this in the friendly and respectful way in which it is meant.</p>
<p>Your argument seems boil down to: (a) changes at BHS are fine as long there is no reduction in service to anyone;  (b) science is good;  (c) the &#8220;science is good&#8221; position has political power.</p>
<p>I think that with (a), in reality, you are endorsing classism and racism (since upper classes and certain raises are favored by the current allocation of services) and that (b) and (c) are hectoring, not rationale.</p>
<p>The principal&#8217;s plan seems weak on his specifics and rationale for how to spend the reallocated funds but you and others are attacking it on some princple opposed to reallocation of funds at all&#8230; and I think in performing such opposition you are making a case study in institutionalized racism and classism.   I wish the principal had his &#8220;ducks more in a row&#8221;, so to speak.  Things are muddled because there are both good and bad reasons to oppose his plan.   It&#8217;s the popularity of the bad reasons to oppose that really makes me uncomfortable with the opposition.</p>
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		<title>By: Redteapot</title>
		<link>http://www.berkeleyside.com/2009/12/30/the-bhs-science-flap-the-ripples-are-spreading/comment-page-1/#comment-621</link>
		<dc:creator>Redteapot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jan 2010 01:32:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.berkeleyside.com/?p=1972#comment-621</guid>
		<description>There has been no decision to date on this proposal. Those involved with education in Berkeley are committed to closing the achievement gap without taking from one group and giving to any other group. This is not an ends justifies the means debate. There will be more opportunities for people to weigh in on this discussion. The new superintendent in Berkeley was a science teacher some years ago and I strongly doubt that he is in favor of killing science labs without very good cause.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There has been no decision to date on this proposal. Those involved with education in Berkeley are committed to closing the achievement gap without taking from one group and giving to any other group. This is not an ends justifies the means debate. There will be more opportunities for people to weigh in on this discussion. The new superintendent in Berkeley was a science teacher some years ago and I strongly doubt that he is in favor of killing science labs without very good cause.</p>
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		<title>By: Alicia</title>
		<link>http://www.berkeleyside.com/2009/12/30/the-bhs-science-flap-the-ripples-are-spreading/comment-page-1/#comment-619</link>
		<dc:creator>Alicia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Dec 2009 19:25:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.berkeleyside.com/?p=1972#comment-619</guid>
		<description>Richard Dawkins official site has a link to the EBX article and about 55 comments so far...http://richarddawkins.net/articles/4844</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richard Dawkins official site has a link to the EBX article and about 55 comments so far&#8230;<a href="http://richarddawkins.net/articles/4844" rel="nofollow">http://richarddawkins.net/articles/4844</a></p>
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		<title>By: TN</title>
		<link>http://www.berkeleyside.com/2009/12/30/the-bhs-science-flap-the-ripples-are-spreading/comment-page-1/#comment-616</link>
		<dc:creator>TN</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Dec 2009 05:24:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.berkeleyside.com/?p=1972#comment-616</guid>
		<description>I love and hate the opportunities that the &#039;net has brought to the realm of public debate. I love that everyone who is on-line has the opportunity to participate. I hate that the dialogue tends to be immoderate and thin on facts. Most particularly, there&#039;s a thinness of &quot;on the ground&quot; points of view. This leaves too much room for dogmatic debate.

I would love to know in this case the opinions of recently graduated BHS students, now in college, who: took the AP science classes at BHS; successfully took the exams; and are now studying in college. What do they think? Do they think that the additional hours of lab in high school really helped them absorb the intellectual material? Were they better prepared for higher level classes in college because of their additional time in lab compared to other students who might not have gotten it? Did it matter? Would it have mattered if the lab time were reduced?

I&#039;m ambivalent about this issue. I come from an &quot;all science&quot; family. My family history is full of scientists of various sorts. My father was the night school professor for my high school science teachers getting their MS degrees sponsored by grants from the National Science Foundation. (This was decades ago when the federal government used to do useful things like this.) I know that my high school teachers sweated blood to make sure that my classmates and I learned the material and that it was accurate, lest I go home and talk to my father.

While I did not study science in college, I do know that science is not just an abstract process. There is a &quot;craft&quot; element to it. It isn&#039;t possible to know really &quot;know&quot; physics or chemistry without feeling some what comfortable in the lab. I imagine that the same is true of biological sciences. The practical handwork in the lab and intellectual understanding go hand in hand.

If the recent BHS graduates don&#039;t feel that the total additional amount of time in high school lab wouldn&#039;t have mattered much to them, maybe this discussion is a waste of time. But if it makes a significant difference, then we need to acknowledge that there is a true cost to making the proposed change.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I love and hate the opportunities that the &#8216;net has brought to the realm of public debate. I love that everyone who is on-line has the opportunity to participate. I hate that the dialogue tends to be immoderate and thin on facts. Most particularly, there&#8217;s a thinness of &#8220;on the ground&#8221; points of view. This leaves too much room for dogmatic debate.</p>
<p>I would love to know in this case the opinions of recently graduated BHS students, now in college, who: took the AP science classes at BHS; successfully took the exams; and are now studying in college. What do they think? Do they think that the additional hours of lab in high school really helped them absorb the intellectual material? Were they better prepared for higher level classes in college because of their additional time in lab compared to other students who might not have gotten it? Did it matter? Would it have mattered if the lab time were reduced?</p>
<p>I&#8217;m ambivalent about this issue. I come from an &#8220;all science&#8221; family. My family history is full of scientists of various sorts. My father was the night school professor for my high school science teachers getting their MS degrees sponsored by grants from the National Science Foundation. (This was decades ago when the federal government used to do useful things like this.) I know that my high school teachers sweated blood to make sure that my classmates and I learned the material and that it was accurate, lest I go home and talk to my father.</p>
<p>While I did not study science in college, I do know that science is not just an abstract process. There is a &#8220;craft&#8221; element to it. It isn&#8217;t possible to know really &#8220;know&#8221; physics or chemistry without feeling some what comfortable in the lab. I imagine that the same is true of biological sciences. The practical handwork in the lab and intellectual understanding go hand in hand.</p>
<p>If the recent BHS graduates don&#8217;t feel that the total additional amount of time in high school lab wouldn&#8217;t have mattered much to them, maybe this discussion is a waste of time. But if it makes a significant difference, then we need to acknowledge that there is a true cost to making the proposed change.</p>
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		<title>By: jy177</title>
		<link>http://www.berkeleyside.com/2009/12/30/the-bhs-science-flap-the-ripples-are-spreading/comment-page-1/#comment-615</link>
		<dc:creator>jy177</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Dec 2009 04:00:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.berkeleyside.com/?p=1972#comment-615</guid>
		<description>Dear T. Lord, 

Even if you are technically correct in your clarification of the definition of the achievement gap, I believe this clarification misses the main issue of concern -- the diversion of limited resources from one use to another for the sake of addressing the achievement gap.   I would add that much of the frustration may stem from the concern that this diversion will likely, in the end, do little to alter the achievement gap.  I believe schools have, in general, very limited power to address all the psychological and emotional challenges that students from disadvantaged backgrounds must overcome in order to excel.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear T. Lord, </p>
<p>Even if you are technically correct in your clarification of the definition of the achievement gap, I believe this clarification misses the main issue of concern &#8212; the diversion of limited resources from one use to another for the sake of addressing the achievement gap.   I would add that much of the frustration may stem from the concern that this diversion will likely, in the end, do little to alter the achievement gap.  I believe schools have, in general, very limited power to address all the psychological and emotional challenges that students from disadvantaged backgrounds must overcome in order to excel.</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas Lord</title>
		<link>http://www.berkeleyside.com/2009/12/30/the-bhs-science-flap-the-ripples-are-spreading/comment-page-1/#comment-610</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas Lord</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Dec 2009 23:22:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.berkeleyside.com/?p=1972#comment-610</guid>
		<description>Dear cynic:  

The achievement gap we are talking about is not one of deviation from a norm - it&#039;s measurement against some baseline measures of basic competence.   If we have a demographic of students who do poorly on certain tests and so forth, then there is a gap.  That doesn&#039;t change no matter how many do well on the same tests.

You could drive out all of the high-performing students tomorrow, so there are none left but low-achieving students -- and the achievement gap would not change, as measured.

Your comment is sadly ignorant of the basic issues in that way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear cynic:  </p>
<p>The achievement gap we are talking about is not one of deviation from a norm &#8211; it&#8217;s measurement against some baseline measures of basic competence.   If we have a demographic of students who do poorly on certain tests and so forth, then there is a gap.  That doesn&#8217;t change no matter how many do well on the same tests.</p>
<p>You could drive out all of the high-performing students tomorrow, so there are none left but low-achieving students &#8212; and the achievement gap would not change, as measured.</p>
<p>Your comment is sadly ignorant of the basic issues in that way.</p>
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