Yountville. CP is long past being anything but a name, although the cafe is good for a casual lunch.

The couple could have mapped the walk from BART to CP ; )

I’ve had up and down experiences at CP. Sometimes it is divine, sometimes it is underwhelming. The staff can be excellent and forgetful at the same time.

I’m not sure where CP fits in or what it wants to be. After one particularly poor meal some years ago I wrote them a letter stating that it felt like a tired restaurant aimed primarily at tourists. It feels like it needs a refresh of sorts. It needs to be re-invented/updated after so many years. It seems to need a leader, a “Steve Jobs” of sorts. It needs a daily Alice Waters to set and maintain the vision on a daily basis.

We prefer the cafe to the downstairs. The downstairs is too haughty.

That said, I will still go again and again. There are other very good restaurants in Berkeley, but none the same as CP.

It’s been up & down for me. The cafe is a better bet, I find. I go there from time to time and will continue to do so as mostly it’s more up than down.

That said, there are places I like more in Berkeley. CP is a landmark, but expensive and hardly the only place for good food in Berkeley.

I prefer the upstairs cafe. Food is the same, you just get to choose what you want -you get less of it and there is less attitude. However the sevice does seem to be slipping the past couple years — the last time I went to the cafe they tried to charge us for 3 bottles of wine instead of the 2 we ordered.

I am curious about the “cocktails” they ordered while waiting. They only have beer and wine on my infrequent visits with insistent out of towners. I was once told by the barkeep that I wasn’t supposed to numb my taste buds with my usual vodka rocks, which is kinda funny because vodka has no taste.
Have they changed their policy, or do they just not serve me alcohol?

Andy: it was a champagne cocktail, to be accurate. And it was good! If the Maine lobster was tongue-in-cheek, that is a very clever chef’s joke.

The Italian-Slovenian border splits the Movia “estate”, so some grapes are grown on the Slovenian side, others on the Italian side. Waiter should have just sold the Pinot Nero as Slovenian…I would have been more specific in calling out the waiter. That’s just either laziness on the part of the waiter, or poor training, which would be the wine director’s fault.

We have had great food every time we’ve been, both up and downstairs. We went on Valentine’s 2009 and it will be one of the most memorable meals in my life in terms of service and execution. The service could be better in general but I’m there primarily for the food. The 17% service charge is noted on the menu.

To Tricia: Local food isn’t necessarily cheap, especially when its all organic. I go to the Berkeley’s organic famers market on Thursday and buy from the farms Chez Panisse uses, and its NOT cheap. It tastes great but you pay the premium. The fixed menu price maxes at $95 for Thurs-Sat I think. Not cheap by any means, but they writers did have wine which could have been $50-$75 of their total bill.
In theory are paying for the Chef’s expertise in addition to just the food costs, but unfortunately it sounds like they were not on their A game.
From my experience its been worth the money to eat at CP, but everyone values things differently.

As an ex- east bay resident and present New Yorker, i truly do not think the downtown Shattuck stop is that far of a walk from CP. definitley no longer than my walk from York Ave to the 6 line. And you get to walk past Virginia Bakery. Having been to CP a couple of times, it is mostly good, simple food- but i am sure there are inconsistencies. At the same time, there are SO many good restaurants in Berkeley and SF that meet and often beat new york.

Hi Jasmine: We never expected Alice Waters to be in the restaurant’s kitchen. From all the food reading I’ve done over the years, writers have loved the experience of her simple, fresh food when she’s cooking for them in a one-on-one environment. But isn’t the restaurant suppose to reflect her style and cooking, with knowledgeable staff/good service? Obviously we know chefs come and go, and that night may have just been a bad one (like Charles wrote, perhaps he’s on his way out). We’ve all experienced that at various restaurants. But our intention was have a special meal for Felix’s birthday, one we traveled for, so our let-down was probably greater than people who live close by and eat there on a regular basis.

It’s nice to see the debate going though, and perhaps something for people traveling from out of town to consider. Once we read several blogs/reviews after, it was evident the majority of folks like the café and skip the restaurant. Fair enough.

Yeah, meh.

I’ve been to cp only four or five times, mostly downstairs, for various special occasions. Overwhelmingly -not- memorable. Not bad. Just not memorable. And one time, excruciatingly achingly sleep-inducingly slow. I’m all for slow food. but we were there for four and a half hours and it wasn’t cuz we were having a time of it.

I’m grateful that cp made my food everywhere tasty. I truly believe that they improved things for everyone. But I just can’t afford to spend money like that for food that (thanks to them) I can now get everywhere.

This whole discussion makes my teeth hurt. Get over yourselves, people! And Chez Panisse is an easy walk from Berkeley BART unless you’re in stiletto heels.

This article should be retitled “Self-Proclaimed NYC Foodies Think They’re Better Than Chez Panisse.”
Also, spending half the article complaining about the location of Chez Panisse and your OWN poor planning is weak. You’re a New Yorker – you should be able to walk a few blocks without whining like a child. Get over yourself.

Alissa, to be fair to Michelle and Felix, they make no claim for particular expertise. I’m the one who “proclaimed” them foodies.

On the walk from BART to Chez Panisse. It’s 0.6 miles from Downtown Berkeley and 1.1 miles from North Berkeley. I’ll leave it to others to judge whether that’s a schlep or an easy jaunt.

…and by 20 years, of course, I meant 30. My how time flies.

Thanks everyone for all the recommendations, we will try out some of these other places next time we’re in SF. I don’t expect this is the last time we ever go to CP, but next time upstairs, without a doubt. We had read some reviews before but the reservation had been made at that point, and yet we were still very optimistic.

Felix and I are not so much as “foodies” as we are “serious eaters” (coined by the great food writer, Calvin Trillin). I’ll finish a meal and be thinking about my next meal – whether it be from the deli or soup dumplings in Chinatown. I love to eat. If you’re curious you can check out Felix’s blog where we sometimes record our kitchen mishaps: http://www.felixsalmon.com/petunia/

Oh, and the BART commute looked like it was doable from Google maps. We walk everywhere in NYC, I don’t blink at walking cross town. But sometimes we forget that 8-10 blocks in most other cities can be much longer blocks, indeed this was the case. Otherwise I would have sported flats!

I’ve been to CP once and did not have a great experience. You would have been much better off going to Corso. Better food and much closer to BART. I’m very excited to see a mention for Eleven Madison in NYC. I’ll be eating there in a few weeks!!

Some of the best places to eat “in Berkeley” are actually in Oakland. Baywolf, for instance.

We eat at Chez Panisse often, and we’ve been going there for more than 15 years. If you’re not expecting it to be a trendy locavore paradise, the food is amazing, and I agree with the above comment about biting into something and having it be a transformative experience. I ate a fig there once, ten years ago, that I still think about. That more than makes up for the rare (VERY rare) thing I eat that doesn’t quite do what I think the chef was going for.

(On a side note, a couple months ago we had an amazing dinner there — I had a piece of chicken that had been cooked under a brick, and it was easily the best chicken I’ve eaten in my life, sorry mom.)

I don’t know that there’s a huge difference between upstairs and downstairs: we usually eat upstairs because we can get reservations a week in advance easily, and there’s a price premium for downstairs that we generally don’t want to pay. But downstairs has always been a special treat, at least for the end of the week seatings when the kinks in the week’s menu have been worked out. I love the characters you see downstairs; people who are there more for appearances than food eat downstairs, and the personal drama is why we opt for that.

I’ve had my share of bad service experiences there (the last time we went, our waiter messed up our wine order), but the food always makes up for it. I think it might be different if I were expecting one visit to be the defining moment in my food life, or, frankly, if I were spending $340. Luckily, my first meal there was a peak experience, and I think it might have cost $150 for two (and that was downstairs).

As for walking from downtown, it’s a weak New Yorker who can’t walk 6 blocks in heels. Honestly.

CP is not a restaurant, it’s a shrine. As a shrine, though, it deserves its reputation fully, because, of course, this is the birthplace of California Cuisine and, by extension, an entirely new conception of food in America. As a restaurant, though, it has, in my opinion, always been very inadequate. Of course, because it is a shrine people give it tremendous leeway.

First of all, there is the issue of the one prix fixe menu, with no choices of substitutions allowed. One is obliged to reserve often months in advance without any idea what will be served. What if the menu features an item you don’t particularly like? Tough.

This makes CP less like a restaurant and more like a roadhouse. Let’s not forget that the first “restaurant” in the United States is commonly thought to be Delmonico’s in New York City, which was founded in the 1830′s. Clearly, there had been eateries for travelers before then, but the one aspect of Delmonico’s that raised it the status of restaurant was the fact that diners could choose their meals.

Now, mind you, there is nothing especially objectionable about CP being a roadhouse, except, of course, when you consider the hefty price.

In one way, CP is more of a legacy restaurant than anything else, not so different from Antoine’s or Galatoire’s in New Orleans. Nobody excepts a great meal in those places either, but you go to commune with an exciting chapter in American culinary history. The difference is that the grand Creole restaurants in the Big Easy celebrate the cuisine on the late nineteenth century, while CP celebrates the California Cuisine of the late sixties.

At last, though, it is easier to have a good time at Antoine’s than at CP, where all the hushed reverence can be a little much.

In another way–and this is perhaps even more confusing given CP’s status as a “foodie” shrine–CP is structurally more like a traditional American steakhouse than a true gourmet restaurant. At a steakhouse they serve a limited selection of dishes, all servd very simply. And you will pay an arm and a leg. Same at CP, although instead of grilled steak, it’s a simple selection of locavore food.

I grew up in Berkeley (although I now live in Brooklyn) and have vivid memories of eating at CP as a teenager with my mother in the late seventies. On that first visit I still remember being shocked at the amount of gristle I found in my meat. I have been back to CP a few times since and have never had anything close to what I what consider a fine meal.

Then there is the issue of the service, which is, frankly, pretty shocking. For those not well versed in the culture of Berkeley, the service is really just a reflection of the city itself. I would describe it as Berkeley aloof. Of course, there many other “aloofs” in the world, including, notably, Parisian aloof. What’s confusing to outsiders about Berkeley’s aloof is that most are expecting California friendly.

I have literally had better meals at the Hyatt in Kansas City, at The American Restaurant, where standout chef Debbie Gold prepares far better locavore food at a fraction of the cost. Of course, without Alice Waters, Debbie Gold might be cooking beef stroganoff and creamed spinach, so Alice definitely deserves the credit for a sea change in our culinary culture.

CP is a shrine to the New Jersey hippie francophile who became a restaurateur. While we can all disagree on how well she has pulled it off (I believe that CP is the most overrated restaurant I have ever eaten in) one thing is certain: She turned into a tremendous gold mine.

Where else would people voluntarily reserve months in advance for a no-substitutions menu, have at best a so-so meal, suffer Berkeley aloof service, and pay $340 for two people. And the place is packed every night.

Alice, you go girl!

it’s hardly a wonder you didn’t enjoy your meal with so much time spent analyzing it and/or comparing it to places like Momfuko, in NYC–a completely different experience and locale. Also seems like somewhat of a cheap shot–is everyone out to vilify CP these days?

CP doesn’t profess to be fancy or reinventing itself after every vogue moment in food, and that’s what makes it, to me, compelling. It’s about clean flavors, excellent produce, cooked in a simple fashion. The downstairs head chef has been cooking there for over 30 years-I guarantee you he is not tired, or outdated–I just cooked with him myself this past weekend, and he is very much a taste master. “He is the real deal,” as another chef (and highly rated himself by Bauer, etc) said to me following that night.

That said, dining upstairs has always been delicious and wonderful and my preferred spot for sharing a meal out if I have the money to do so. And granted, when you are paying a hefty price for a dinner out (and one you have lots of expectations around), you want good service and good food, and I’m sorry that you felt like you had neither. it can happen at the best of restaurants, as we all know. But, rather than writing a public letter, why not send them a note, so they have the chance to improve themselves? Or better, yet, talk with the house manager right then and there?

In the new wave of blogging and internet sharing, everyone thinks they are a restaurant critic. Blasting it across the universe can do great damage–perhaps not to CP-but definitely to smaller restaurants and family owned businesses. It also spurns hateful comments, some seen here above. Why not give them the opportunity to correct where they went wrong, and spark up a conversation? I think you would be better served next time by that small gesture.

And for disclosure-I’m not a CP chef, or even a CP insider. But I do love good food and think CP has a delicious history worthy of its legacy.

Romney –

Why is it wrong to compare CP to restaurants in different experiences and locales? Should we assume that all locales are just as good as one another? Isn’t comparing intrinsic to the way we evaluate _any_ food?

It seems to me that evaluating food is best done by those who have experienced many different locales and cuisines and can make fruitful comparisons between them. That is, being a credible judge of food requires an education in which serious and initially open-minded exposure to broad traditions is an important part (which is not to say that depth of knowledge is not also useful/important.)

As I said above, I think the CP Cafe is a perfectly respectable restaurant for what it does. The problem, of course, is that the formal restaurant does, in my opinion, have a vastly over inflated reputation that lead to the kind of disappointment we see in the original blog positing. It is spoken of as one of the greats, but many people find that it falls far short of its reputation. I’m happy to live near it and enjoy its pleasures, but I would be sorely disappointed if I made a special trip from NYC where eating there would be a highlight.

Finally, I think you bring up an interesting point about who should be reviewing what restaurant on the internet. Certainly there are far too many people who feel free to post scathing remarks of restaurants (but also overly adulatory ones) with little thought. But the letter above — whether one agrees with it or not — seems to me a sincere and serious effort to think about their experience at the restaurant. Readers can read it and get a sense of whether they are likely to agree with the writers or not, based on their style, their beliefs and assumptions, their reactions to various things. In short, it strikes me as representative of a type of internet criticism that should be applauded. (Again, that doesn’t mean one need agree with it.) It generates a community of people who care about food and share their experiences, and it has generated this conversation.

CP Regular,

Spurring conversation is absolutely, a good thing–as seen above and as you point out, so here we are.

Also, I don’t disagree that eating in different restaurants, across countries, nations, locales, is an excellent place from which to write a review or make an informed evaluation, and certainly that information can be very valuable for readers who want to go out and enjoy a meal at the same place. But dining at a restaurant once, hardly gives you a proper stick with which to measure, in my view.

As for CP’s reputation–perhaps it has an “inflated reputation,” as you suggest, no-doubt a problem for first time goers if the experience doesn’t match the expectation. I just don’t think, though, that comparing CP to Momofuko (known for their inventiveness) and Alinea (ultra modern), is a fair analogy if that was the kind of food, or experience the writers were looking for.

Bug again, speaking as someone who grew up in a restaurant with a long history and reputation, that doesn’t always fulfill people’s expectations (nor live up to their own), 60 years on, I think most often, when given the opportunity, restaurant owners welcome critical reviews and even complaints, so that they can work to create a better experience for all their guests.

Be well.

I got to add one more data point here: I’ve eaten in the cafe twice and never downstairs. My first cafe experience was fine, pretty good but not super special. The second time my experience upstairs matched Felix’s and Michelle’s downstairs: crowded room, inconsiderate waitstaff, alternately hurried and lagging service, and surprisingly limited and uncreative menu choices. I’m grateful to Alice Waters and Chez Panisse for creating this Berkeley cuisine, but at this point, I’d as soon go to the many other places that have built on what they created. Chez Panisse seems to be operating on its legacy at this point.